Aren't You Supposed To Stick Your Behind Out to Sit Down or Do Squats?
Monday, March 12, 2007
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM
A commonly repeated phrase in fitness training and programs is "neutral spine" and "tuck the tail" for healthier lower spine posture. Many people know this, repeat this, teach this, write articles about it, then jut their hip too far out in back and overly-arch their lower spine, doing just the opposite, when they squat, bend to pick things up, sit in a chair, and exercise (photo at left).
Tilting the hip too far outward in back overly-arches and hyperextends the lower spine - photo at left and left drawing below.
Hyperextrending the spine, creating too much lordosis (hyperlordosis) can result in unhealthful compression on the spine joints called facets, and on surrounding soft tissue.
Overarching shifts your body weight onto the spine joints and compresses them in a bent-backward position, eventually increasing back pain and joint damage.
Another issue is that if you cannot squat without sticking out in back or leaning your upper body far forward, it is a sign that your thighs are weak, your Achilles tendons are tight, you are not using your ab muscles, your balance is poor, or all four.
Why do so many programs teach to stick far out in back? It is well known that the opposite problem of tucking too much and rounding forward (lumbar flexion) contributes to back pain. People hear this and assume that the opposite, over-arching backward, will counteract that. They exaggerate the arch.Overarching often initially seems to "work" because you can lift more since you shift some of the work from the muscles onto the lower spine (and sometimes knees).
The muscles do less, so it seems easier. Competition lifters use it to lift more, regardless of the pain and injuries it causes later on.
It is trend-breaking news to say don't stick your backside out too much to squat, and instead use neutral spine, shown in the right-hand drawing. I know. It goes against what fitness organizations and pop-science exercise books teach. I know. Try this to see for yourself:
- Stand upright with feet side-by-side, comfortably apart.
- Face both feet in the same direction as your knees.
- Bend both knees, keeping both heels down on the floor and over your feet, not sinking inward or bowing outward.
- Look down and see if your knees cover the sight of your toes.
- If you can't see your toes because your knees are forward blocking the view, pull your knees back (keeping them bent) until you are still squatting but can see your toes.
- Keep your upper body as upright as you can.
- Now, here is the point about the lower back - notice if you tilt too far out in back, pinching your lower spine backward like a straw. Overarching may be habit, or that you don't have the leg strength or balance, or your Achilles tendon is so tight that your heels come up from the floor. Instead, tuck the bottom of the hip under, just enough to bring the spine to "neutral." A small inward curve remains when you have neutral spine, but not a large one - Right-hand drawing.
- Raise your upper body to be more vertical, while staying in the squat.
- Notice how you have to use far more leg and hip muscle, and the pressure of holding your body weight comes off the lower back and knee joints.
Another point in spine health and exercise is not to "tighten" or clench your abdominal muscles to squat or lift. It is not healthy or useful to tighten muscles for movement. It is trend-breaking news to say "don't tighten." I know. It goes against what fitness organizations and pop-science exercise books have been teaching. I know. Tightening is not what supports your back. Moving your spine out of unhealthy over-arched position, explained in this post, to a more neutral position is what "supports" (you hold your spine in place) preventing pain and injury. Using the muscles to stop unhealthy position, and hold healthful position is how you support your back - not by tightening.
- The previous post explains tightening - Using Abdominal Muscles is Not Tightening or Pressing Navel to Spine
- Also don't need to tighten gluteals - Gluteal Muscles Myth - Shaking The Dog's Paw
Fun effective exercises, without tightening or the forward bending of crunches or Pilates that causes so much back pain:
Have fun being part of this big and healthy change in fitness.
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Read success stories of these methods and send your own.
Subscribe to The Fitness Fixer, free. Click "updates via e-mail" (under trumpet) upper right.
See Dr. Bookspan's Books, take a Class, get certified - DrBookspan.com/Academy.
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Read success stories of these methods and send your own.
Subscribe to The Fitness Fixer, free. Click "updates via e-mail" (under trumpet) upper right.
See Dr. Bookspan's Books, take a Class, get certified - DrBookspan.com/Academy.
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Photo of overarch squat by subscription from Clipart.com
Drawings of Backman!™ © copyright Dr. Jolie Bookspan
Drawings of Backman!™ © copyright Dr. Jolie Bookspan
Labels: abdominal muscles, achilles stretch, lordosis, lower back, myths, neutral spine, squat, strength
11 Comments:
At Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:14:00 PM,
Anonymous said…
Do you squat?
How much do you squat?
Please explain why every olympic weightlifter, powerlifter, bodybuilder, and professional athlete pushes the hips back to some extent before descending into the squat?
At Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:16:00 PM,
Anonymous said…
Do you squat?
How much do you squat?
Please explain why every olympic weightlifter, powerlifter, and professional athlete who has developed great leg strength and development has squatted in the fashion that you denigrate.
At Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:49:00 PM,
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM said…
Don't worry, I know this is different. But it's good. I'm not an ivory-tower doc who doesn't want anyone to strain themselves. My work is finding ways so you can do more and lift more and be as wild as you want to be. That is why I developed this.
I was taught to stick far out in back, too, when I started. Just like we were all taught to do duck-walks and other exercises that work, but are not the best for your joints. I spent years studying lifters with back, knee, and shoulder pain and injuries.
Sticking out "to some extent," as you say, is one thing. What my article addresses is "sticking far out in back" as often taught. For that, your specific question is in the article - Why do programs teach it? First, the opposite position - rounding the spine forward - works the muscles but is hard on the discs, so people learned to arch back instead. They just did it too much. Second, exaggerating the arch so far past neutral spine lets you lift more because you "shift work off your muscles and onto your lower spine (and sometimes knees). The muscles do less, so it seems easier. Competition lifters use it to lift more, regardless of the pain and injuries it causes later on."
People don't power-lift for their health. They do it to lift more than the next guy. I see a lot of them as patients. So do my colleagues. I want to make them able to go back and lift again, year after year, not be sidelined.
If something works, as an athlete I want to do it, but only if it is good for you too. In my day (long ago) doctors prescribed cigarettes to people to help them feel good, lose weight, and exercise more. Doctors also prescribed amphetamines for athletes. Cigarettes and amphetamines work, but are still not good for you. I am glad I didn't do it just to be able to lift more.
Many of my sports medicine colleagues see some lifts as so injurious that they caution their teams not to do them at all. I prefer to see if there are healthier ways. Here is one where I found a way for athletes to lift more with better positioning and also stop the injuries: Safer Overhead Military Press
It is trend-breaking news to say don't stick your backside out to squat. I know. It goes against what fitness organizations and pop-science exercise books teach. I know. Remember that it is not news to say to keep neutral spine - and "sticking out" is not neutral spine. Try the slight tuck to bring your spine closer to neutral spine to see for yourself. Neutral spine still has a slight inward curve to the lower back, but not the large one of sticking far out, that lets you do more at the price of slowly, eventually injuring the spine. When you do it right, you will immediately feel how it uses your legs and hips more and your spine joints less. Thanks for good questions.
At Monday, April 02, 2007 4:11:00 PM,
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM said…
efm, thank you. I'm a supporter of squats as healthy exercise. Here is the drawing and description:
Free Exercise and Free Back and Knee Pain Prevention - Healthy Bending.
I know the guys overly arch in the gym. I am the one who has to see their x-rays after they have done it for 20 years. They come to me because other docs tell them they have to stop lifting. I work to get them back to lifting more without the injuries from the backward compression and spine pinching from the overarching.
It's not hard - don't overly tuck to round forward or overly arch backward. From an overlyarched position, you tuck just enough to return the spine to neutral. Neutral spine still has a small inward curve to the lower back. Just not a large one.
Keep posting your good ideas here and we'll work to get you all you need. Maybe come to a workshop. Then you can see for yourself what works for you. Until then use the stuff in the blog and, with your good sense, try things and feel the difference.
At Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:28:00 PM,
Anonymous said…
Dear Dr. B, Tom Furman (Physical Strategies) sent me to this post, and I love it. A long-time deadlifter and kettlebell lifter, I thought I knew it all, but I've benefited a lot from your messages about healthy bending.
But now a question: I still like to do light (1-1.5x BWT), high-rep barbell squats, butt-to-heel. But I can't get there without lumbar rounding if I hold my feet straight. I have to splay them. Is that a problem?
Once again, many thanks for what you do. I wish there were more folks like you out there.
At Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:13:00 PM,
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM said…
Jason thank you. There is a lot of pro and con discussion about foot position. The way you describe the feet "splaying" - is it a problem? I hope not. If it compels large amounts of lumbar rounding, it would be interesting (to me, anyway) to explore why. Does the rounding occur from change in foot position even with same stance width? If you can send photos, all the better to make sure I understand. I don't believe it matters by millimeters. Just keep general healthy positioning, keep simple, and fun.
Kettlebells are fun. Being Russian, I used to see them in the circus. My Grandmother taught yirevoy to me when I was small. We pretended to be Tatar strongmen - throwing to each other - further and further away until we'd knock each other down - whamm. Not uniquely Russian, they were used in several cultures - Highland Scots and ancient Chinese tossed heavy stones with handles for contests and training. You inspired me to post something about lifestyle exercise equipment like the rocks and farm tools and household stuff used before marketing. Maybe there was always marketing.
At Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:49:00 PM,
SafeNSharp said…
Hi, Dave in Chicago, came across this blog again which inspired to ask your opinion on the following:
1) What is your opinion on Pete Egoscue's (www.egoscue.com) opinion of keeping feet pointed straight ahead when squatting? Most squatters have feet pointed outward somewhat.
2) Dan John (and others) has a neat video, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744
where he teaches one to 'sit down between the legs' rather than on top of them. This forces one to open the knees and sit 'in between.' Is there any problem with that alignment-wise according to your research?
Always interesting...
At Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:13:00 PM,
Unknown said…
Dr. Bookspan,
Giving advice to weightlifters who squat is a lose-lose proposition for you.
First, squatting with heavy weights is just plain unnatural. I've done it. It builds muscle. But eventually you get injured. So for you to give advice for an inadvisable activity is like teaching safe smoking.
Second, your advice doesn't say anything new. Your reply to anonymous (Sticking out "to some extent," as you say, is one thing. What my article addresses is "sticking far out in back" as often taught) that he should avoid extremes is not new advice.
I apologize for being critical because your advice on posture is generally spot on. I'm just saying that there is little benefit to be gained by offering advice to weightlifters.
At Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:46:00 PM,
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM said…
Right David, you can lead a horse to water, as they say.
Explaining neutral spine to lifters is not new. Having them use it and not have injuries from heavy lifting seems to be new and working. (Posts against not overarching on muscle websites show it may be new to some.) Is it an inadvisable activity? Some medical experts state no sun exposure is safe. I believe the evidence that a certain amount is requisite for specific health aspects - see Healthy Mother's Day. Some sports physicians prohibit the overhead press because of high injury rate. I studied key repositioning that can restore it as a functional activity - Safer Overhead Military Press.
Whether squatting heavy is natural - heavy and pregnant people need it to sit and rise from a low chair or the floor. Rescuers, builders, military, farmers, and others squat heavy loads for daily work. Whether I am talking to the wind? Sure. But it is still right to do.
"Only a foolish mouse hides in a cat's ear. But only the wisest cat looks there." - Old Buddhist saying, attributed to various modern authors including Scots Admiral Andrew Mercer
At Sunday, June 14, 2009 4:57:00 AM,
Dada said…
Dear Dr Bookspan,
very interesting post, I'm learning how to squat correctly and I have a question about knee position and toes.
I understand from your post that we should always been able to see the toes when squatting.
Another post (which seems very serious) claims that it is not an issue:
http://tonyboutagy.blogspot.com/2009/05/squatting-how-i-teach-squat-and-reasons.html
"The concept of restricting the knees while squatting is so commonly known and accepted, but I am still yet to see any convincing scientific evidence that provides definitive proof that performing the squat (or it’s derivatives) through a full range of motion with correct technique (assuming a trainee possesses the required strength and flexibility) is dangerous to the knees. The evidence simply does not support such a viewpoint. The most noted squat researcher of our time, Rafael Escamilla, has recently said:
Clinicians and trainers often believe that anterior translation of the lead knee beyond the toes during squatting type exercises increases patellofemoral force and stress, but currently there is no evidence to support this belief (Escamilla, et al. 2009)."
Thanks for your help.
Best Regards,
Dada
At Monday, June 15, 2009 1:05:00 AM,
Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed, PhD, FAWM said…
Bonjour M. Dada, try it for yourself and you will immediately feel the difference. Done as intended, you will feel the weight shift off the knees and onto the thigh and hip muscles.
It is up to you whether you prefer to have the weight on your joints, which eventually wear from that weight, or the muscles, which strengthen and augment.
As far as "learning how to squat correctly" it depends if you mean for the most health benefit or to lift the most weight. There are different techniques to maximize each.
People get emotional about squatting. Do however you want. This method is for those who want more exercise, and for the many who are told by their doctors to stop lifting because of chronic, intractable knee pain. With shift to the muscles, they become able to return to lifting (and stairs, and bending around the house) fairly quickly, with health and without pain.
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